DUST Search - I switched my vote to option 5 for SP poll and why i think you should too.

Scurvy Granger wrote:

Another one...

I responded to you in proto's thread. Look at all the people arguing in favor of option 5, it's the "hardcore" players, and a lot of the time they even state they want it so they don't "get punished" for playing good.

It has nothing to do with being punished, if they wanted to punish you for playing good then they would go to a weekly cap with no soft cap and I bet you'd still play anyway at least until you get tired of crushing newberries.

All the "hardcore" players(players that have ungodly amounts of time to spend on games) know that option 5 will allow them to get WAY ahead of everyone else which is why they are arguing in favor of it. We understand you don't want to get less gain for playing the same, but we don't want to fall so far behind you because we have a lot going on in our lives that when we do get on we can't even take ten steps without dying.

I took a 3 month break and came back about a week ago. I am already so far behind and when I face one of those "hardcore" players it doesn't matter how much skill I have, their rifles recoil less, do mare damage, are deadlier than anything I can put up. Their armor takes less damage, has better equipment, and has better shields so my inferior weapons and armor mean I'm dead.

Maybe option 5 will be the way to go in 1-2 years when the "hardcore" vets have found other interests to occupy their time, but implementing it right now would only create a Grand Canyon between them and new players.


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Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 18:26:00 - [1] - Quote I just posted this proto's thread https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=53519&find=unread It can be found here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=495754#post495754 but i made my own thread because i think i provide a reasoned argument that may get overlooked because of just large amount of text. I apologize if you feel this is spam but please take the time to read it in its entirety. Please don't let my tags bias you and just read with an open mind, i think you will be convinced by the end of the text. I just switched my vote because originally i thought option 5 was for an unrestricted SP gain with no CAP of any kind. I think the confusion is coming from no CAP and no Soft CAP. I think people mistakenly think that option 5 will be no cap of any kind when it clearly means that the soft CAP will not have a restriction on how much you can earn in terms of SP but it is still 1WP=1SP. It's a weekly cap + no limit on soft CAP. However from i understand the soft cap still means 1WP=1SP. Well if thats the case i think that is fine because in most Skirmish matches people wont get much higher than 1000 SP avg WP for me is about 1200-1400 WP. I have had games of 2000+ and reached 3000WP once. In the larger WP games it was because it was a large map with multiple objectives and multiple things to hack. Another thing to consider is redline matches DIMINISH your WP potential since once a team is redlined there is hardly anything to generate WP except resupply, revive, repair, kills, assists. Sounds like a lot but against a team that is redlined its not like there will be much need for those things. And kills/assists will be fought over for by the entire team. When the match is hotly contested then WP gains is easier but that means you have two relatively equal teams and there is a back and forth that deserves a better SP reward by way of more WP that you gain from rehacking stuff. But this scenario is far and few between when you have a team of vets vs noobs. But vets vs vets and NOOBS vs NOOBS offer the greatest WP generation and both instances allow for a fair SP acquisition. Of course if one squad has a tank and proceed to destroy every installation that is a lot WP that can be hogged by that individual 100-120 WP per installation adds up fast. But even then it often results in a redline situation and the player isnt likely to get more than 2000SP in a skirmish match which lasts roughly twice as long as ambush where top players are consistently earning in the 800-1200 WP range every game. So it ultimately works out. Everyone saying they get 4000+ SP games on a regular forget that is before they hit the cap which provides SP for WP plus time spent in game. Once the cap hits the soft cap will ONLY be 1WP=1SP, im sorry nobody here is earning more than 2000WP/game on a regular basis unless the games are very hotly contested. If you are seeing this then you are either playing other vets or more likely not playing all that well because hardcore vets limit your WP potential by way of redlining anyway. This mean casual players are more likely to benefit since they are the most likely to be involved in matches that result in volatility where as vets will often get a team redlined and then be limited to how much more WP they will gain. Ultimately the way the game dishes out WP and how greater skill against a team of less skill can actually hurt your WP generation this serves as an inherent check and balance against vets players while helping casual and newer players. In conclusion based on my above arguments it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY a person will earn more than 1000 SP per game in ambush and also balances skirmish where 2x time spent in match gives 2x potential SP on avg instead of a blanket 1000SP. Think about those numbers for a second you know i am right. If option 2 goes into effect there will be no point to skirmish once cap is hit since 1000SP soft cap in either mode makes ambush more attractive. Whereas no limit on Soft cap other than the 1WP=1SP (this is what option 5 means) corrects for the time imbalance between ambush and skirmish while still giving an avg of 1000SP per 7min cycle. I base this on the fact that most of my ambush matches last me about 7 mins or less Skirmish match fully redlined lasts about 10-12 minuts.(These matches will very unlikely see greater than 2000WP for the top players in the match) Matches that last longer will generate higher WP and thus more SP but its still avg out to 1000SP/7mins of game time 3000WP=3000SP but ill bet everything that match lasted close to 20-full 25 minutes. Do you see how option 5 balances the time difference between both modes while still playing close to the 1000WP/match limit option 2 would have across all game modes?
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 18:50:00 - [2] - Quote Jeremiah ambromot wrote: No because it will allow those who play very often to gain a huge advantage against those that are able to play until cap, and an unreachable gap for those who play less often. High sp=\=high skill but with a large enough gap in sp an average player could beat a good player most if the time. Now once we have a large enough pool of players who can not skill taller but only wider it could be reasonable to allow new players to catch up, but currently it would give others too much of an advantage. Thank you for trying to be thorough and explain yourself though gunner. Yes but you do see how option 2 would allow for that as well right? What im trying to say is that option 5 doesnt allow for an unchecked level of SP gain, it merely ends up balancing the time difference spent between ambush and skirmish. There is only so much WP you can earn. Just to make sure i wasn't wrong about the differnce im requoting excerpts of the original dev poll found here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=52633&find=unread 1)Daily cap with an increased soft cap 2)Weekly cap with an increased soft cap 3)No changes to the current system (daily cap + low soft cap) 4) Daily cap with no limit on the soft cap 5) Weekly cap with no limit on the soft cap The increased soft cap would entail rewarding one skill point for each warpoint after the normal daily or weekly cap has been hit, up to the increased soft cap (currently 50 SP, we will raise it to 1000 SP per match). This is to provide an incentive towards playing well even after the cap has been reached and make the play experience after hitting the cap better. *We are also considering another alternative, which is to not* have a cap (of 1k) on the soft cap, so, after weekly cap is hit, you still get 1 SP per WP at end of match**. We would like to hear which of these you like better as well (cap on the soft cap vs no cap on soft cap). So it still limits SP based on WP but again as ive laid out the WP gain in an ambush match is rarely greater than 1000WP. In skirmish its closer to 2000WP but you spend twice the time so if a person played two ambush games they would spend about the same time as one skirmish match. So then if option 2 goes into effect why would any "grinders" play anything but ambush. And ultimately that disparity will still exist regardless of option 2 or option 5. Option 5 simply corrects for the increased time spent in skirmish is all im trying to say. But thank you for your responses and i appreciate your concerns. Edit--Also from what i understand by weekly cap is that it will remain hard cap like we have now with daily so no diminishing returns. The only difference between option 2 and 5 is the restriction on soft cap but as ive laid out that difference is almost negligible and ultimately limits players who want to play skirmish after they hit their cap but also want to grind and even then it isnt any different that 1000SP limit other than it correct for the time spent in skirmish.
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 18:55:00 - [3] - Quote BobThe843CakeMan wrote: Jeremiah ambromot wrote: No because it will allow those who play very often to gain a huge advantage against those that are able to play until cap, and an unreachable gap for those who play less often. High sp=\=high skill but with a large enough gap in sp an average player could beat a good player most if the time. Now once we have a large enough pool of players who can not skill taller but only wider it could be reasonable to allow new players to catch up, but currently it would give others too much of an advantage. Thank you for trying to be thorough and explain yourself though gunner. They still will. A cap isn't going to stop them. People will always be better than you and get used to it. But have to limit on the soft cap at least lets you get what yo deserve. 1k a match is already enough to grind for. But making it have no limits will let people get more for playing better. Even without the soft cap 1WP=1SP mean nobody is going to be earning more than 1000SP/ambush match 2000SP/skirmish match since nobody earns that much more WP in a match at least not on avg of course there will be outliers but they are far and few in between and ive explained under what circumstances when that would happen. Ive seen 1500WP in ambush but thats rare and ive never seen 2000WP or anything ridiculous like that in ambush, anybody else? In skirmish ive never seen score greater than 2000WP on a regular basis and if they did it was a match that lasted quite a long time. So ultimately all the no soft cap does is adjust for the time disparity spent between ambush and skirmish.
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:17:00 - [4] - Quote Sir Meode wrote: 1wp=1sp up to 1000SP max a game, it is very easy to get 2500+wp a match in Skirmish even if the enemy is camped in there red line so just leaving it 1wp=1sp is a bad idea In a match that last 2x as long in skirmish if not longer than a typical ambush match. where it is even easier to earn a 1000WP every game. So all it will do is drive the grinders and vets into ambush for their WP. Maybe 1.5-2WP=1SP? Also i think "very easy to get 2500WP" a match is a bit of an overstatement and certainly doesnt reflect the avg WP gain from a typical redline skirmish match, doable yes, constantly and consistently no. 2000WP yes that is in the realm of constant and consistent every SKIRMISH match. But again skirmish last TWICE as long. See how all it really does is correct for the time disparity between the two game modes whereas option 2 will only result in people moving to ambush. (A mode that more noobs play because its TDM and everybody noob wants to play TDM).
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:46:00 - [5] - Quote Skihids wrote: The soft cap isn't really a cap at all because it never "caps" out. It's really just a throttle on gains above the time in match SP cap. So the only difference between this and "no cap at all" that we are dead set against as a community, is that you don't get the match time bonus after a certain amount of SP (the so called "soft cap"). The proposed "no cap" was also 1WP = 1SP without any time in match bonus. So option #5 is precisely what everyone is up in arms about sans match time SP! As such it will still encourage constant grinding, allow no-lifers to pull way ahead, and imbalance the player base before it matures enough not to adversely affect the DUST/EVE connection. The 1,000 SP throttle on WP conversion is actually pretty high. Anyone but beast players don't get much more than that in any one match, and it's 1,500 SP with a booster. A no-lifer can still grind a huge advantage with that. Nobody needs to max out the entire skill tree so fast that they need unlimited WP/SP conversion. The 1,000 limit is a plenty reward for plying another match on to of the ISK, and hopefully we will have many other reasons to play in the future. Okay again then explain to me how this limits anyone from just playing ambush matches where earning 1000WP is a regular occurence for every beast player in a shorter duration of time. Few if ANY earn more than that and certainly NOT ON A REGULAR BASIS. All option 5 does is allows somebody who PLAY SKIRMISH to get the same kind of consistency in terms of time spent in the gamemode. Like i said nobody is earning 1500-2000WP in ambush, they get them in skirmish and more so they get b/w 2000-3000WP and that is on a match that will often last 2-3x an ambush match. So again if a person who wants to grind as we all know they will where will they go? Option 5 does have a throttle built in its the 1WP=1SP throttle, there are only so many WP's you can earn in a match and the matches where you earn more than 1000WP are skirmish matches which last longer and has more ways of earning WP.
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:47:00 - [6] - Quote Alaunryna Hun'ana wrote: Be honest. The REAL reason you switched to option 5 is because Protoman told you too. No i can think for myself thank you.
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:58:00 - [7] - Quote Scurvy Granger wrote: Another one... I responded to you in proto's thread. Look at all the people arguing in favor of option 5, it's the "hardcore" players, and a lot of the time they even state they want it so they don't "get punished" for playing good. It has nothing to do with being punished, if they wanted to punish you for playing good then they would go to a weekly cap with no soft cap and I bet you'd still play anyway at least until you get tired of crushing newberries. All the "hardcore" players(players that have ungodly amounts of time to spend on games) know that option 5 will allow them to get WAY ahead of everyone else which is why they are arguing in favor of it. We understand you don't want to get less gain for playing the same, but we don't want to fall so far behind you because we have a lot going on in our lives that when we do get on we can't even take ten steps without dying. I took a 3 month break and came back about a week ago. I am already so far behind and when I face one of those "hardcore" players it doesn't matter how much skill I have, their rifles recoil less, do mare damage, are deadlier than anything I can put up. Their armor takes less damage, has better equipment, and has better shields so my inferior weapons and armor mean I'm dead. Maybe option 5 will be the way to go in 1-2 years when the "hardcore" vets have found other interests to occupy their time, but implementing it right now would only create a Grand Canyon between them and new players. I havent looked at your response in the other thread yet, but i wlll Soon TM. Again please explain to me or debunk the argument i have made that the 1000SP soft cap per match has any effect on a hardcore player other than they will simply farm ambush instead of skirmish since the SP gains in ambush will come at quicker clips since avg ambush match with HC player last 4-7mins and an avg skirmish match lasts 7-12mins in which you can POTENTIALLY earn upwards of 3000WP but is more CONSISTENTLY AROUND 2000WP. Just for clarification again, option 5 is not a removal of a CAP ENTIRELY it is WEEKLY CAP +NO SOFT CAP BUT 1WP=1SP. So again the throttle exists based on potential WP gain which again is LiMITED by GAMEMODE and the mode that allows a larger potential LAST LONGER. Im not trying to be standoffish and i really do understand your concern, all im saying is when you look at the two options side by side you realize all option 2 does is throttles players and will move them into Ambush. As for why HC players are choosing 5 and casuals are choosing 2 is because they have misunderstood this fundamental and nuianced difference and think oh gee someone can earn upwards of 2-3K SP a match but they forget to account that the matches in which that is possible are 2-3x longer than an Ambush match where if option 2 is in effect is where they will all go. I think people think that 3K WP is somehow the avg WP for a HC player in skirmish when i know its closer to 2K. Do outliers exist of course they do but they are outliers for a reason. So i ask you again to re-read my post and look at the two options side by side a bit more thoroughly you will see that there isnt this huge unchecked difference between the two and where it is a difference is in how it hurts players who want to grind and yet still play skrimish. Thank you Now an effective comprimise would be to simply raise the SOFT CAP for SKIRMISH to 2000 and we will have addressed my main issue with option 2.
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:05:00 - [8] - Quote Deleted as it has since been addressed and resolved.
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:26:00 - [9] - Quote I apologize as well, i really should grow thicker skin on the interwebz and not assume every comment on a my threads are directed at me. Just passion got the better of me and i felt like i was being dismissed for unfair reasons. Personally i agree with you that family is a huge time sink(but totally worth it). And i for one describe myself as casualcore player. Im among as i suspect you are the generation that grew up gaming, from atari to paper and pen RPGS to what we have now. I for one hate being pushed aside from video games especially when they forget that my generation of gamers are as passionate as younger gamers and have our own money that when financially possible will gladly part with it for our "entertainment". Anyway moving on, I have noted a compromise about possibly raising the SP soft cap to 2000 SP for skirmish as i think that address my main issue with option 2 while still addressing everyone's concern with option 5. Think that is a bit more reasonable?
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:43:00 - [10] - Quote Yea that could work too, just dont think CCP will do it, oh well. At least we have some good foundations set for when we gear up to debate this again when CCP want to establish the "real" SP system. Thanks for the responses everyone.